Talk:Jerusalem

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[edit] Re-framing first para to emphasise history

Over at the FA review, I suggested reframing the opening of the article to emphasise Jerusalem's historic and religious significance. Feedback has been minimal but no one has shot it down in flames (yet). I'm bringing it over here for more comment.

Jerusalem (Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם‎ (audio) (help·info), Yerushaláyim; Arabic: القُدس (audio) (help·info), al-Quds)[ii] is an ancient city of great significance to the three monotheistic religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. It has been fought over many times, including during the Crusades. Most recently, the whole city has been united under Israeli control following the Six-Day War of 1967. It functions as Israel's capital, and has been expanded to be her largest city both in terms of populaton and area. However, the status of the city continues to be the subject of international dispute.

--Peter cohen (talk) 07:23, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I think this is a great solution, Peter. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 22:26, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
From my review of this article today, it has clearly deteriorated to the point where I wouldn't rate it anywhere near FA status. It needs a TOTAL rewrite. The lead is the least of the problem (apart from the last sentence which is entirely incomprehensible. Looking at the quality of the additions made since it became a Featured Article, I have little faith that it can be brought back from the dead. At the moment, it is truly pitiful.--Gilabrand (talk) 12:40, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Well, quite a few people from all sides have made precisely this point, only to be challenged as, if on the 'Palestinian' side (a stupid taxonomic simplification), engaged in a 'demonisation' campaign against Israel. So your comment perplexes me. Every attempt to note the disorder you remark on has come up against a defensive barrier precisely because of its FA status. On an article as important and sensitive as this, evidently, we require comprehensive, close and empathetic collaboration. There is little evidence of that at the moment. The reaction to suggestions that it requires considerable revision has been one of stubborn proud resistance, as though the usual grabbag of ratbag partisan editors like myself wanted to wage the 1967 war again over its narrative, to reverse that result.Nishidani (talk) 10:26, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I am also adding a caveat regarding statistical population data in the it paragraph. The 2 sources given are Israeli, not neutral. It should be noted that Eastern Jerusalem is disputed, and this data would not be valid if it becomes the capital of a Palestinian State, and that Israel has no right to count people who consider themselves (and are considered by most of the world) as under occupation by a foreign power. I have included a wiki link to Positions on Jerusalem. Remember, the count is not being split, it is a simple caveat on statistics and counting within recognized jurisdictional sovereignty, let's not let it get inflamed. --AladdinSE (talk) 10:44, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

The 2 sources given are Israeli, not neutral. Okay, there are times when accusations of bias sound absurd, and this is one of them. If the point you want to make is that the population and area cited in the article includes both East and West Jerusalem, you could have very easily done that without calling out the sources because they're Israeli. The sources are obviously talking about the entire city -- East and West -- as would any source that says the population or area of Jerusalem, without specifying a half, is such and such. I'm even having trouble finding stats on individual halves. Nevertheless, I think that first sentence could be split out to avoid the abrupt presentation of the side note, as well as the blatant reminder that "oh yeah, the city is contested; we can't even tell you the population without saying it's contested!". Specifically, I'm suggesting that the "largest city" fact be split out, particularly because, even if just West Jerusalem is counted (although I'm not particularly sure that is a good idea), Jerusalem would still be Israel's largest city, in area, at least, and perhaps in population (although, as I said, I'm having trouble finding the population in each half). By other metrics, namely the number of Israeli citizens in the city, Jerusalem would definitely be Israel's largest city, by population. -- tariqabjotu 11:12, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
I concur with Tariqabjotu. This seems to me mostly like a pretext for adding the word "disputed" and the Positions on Jerusalem wikilink yet one more time. -- Nudve (talk) 11:53, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

We can reduce redundant repetitions of the word "disputed" and the Positions on Jerusalem link later in the article if you like, but surely the intro paragraph has first dibs on such a central and controversial issue. As for my comments on Israeli government sources not being neutral, I fail to see the reason for your chagrin. It is perfectly true I'm sure you'll agree, and moreover was not stated in the article, rather the edit summary! Now, since Arab East Jerusalem is considered by most of the world to be illegally occupied territory, surely that simple caveat regarding the population count and more importantly the area (in sq kilometers) is simple and logical, and I find it not to be abrupt at all. However, if you would please give us an example here of how you would split-out the statistics from the first sentence, I should be pleased to give my input.--AladdinSE (talk) 10:12, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Whitewashing

Gilabrand's rephrasing today of what happened in the Moroccan Quarter after 1967 is an example of what some editors on this page (not including myself, until now) have been describing as whitewashing of edits that appear to cast Israel in a bad light. We now have a story about Arab slums being replaced by throngs of Jewish worshippers (the reference supporting the claim that this was a slum is a letter from the permanent representative of Israel to the UN). It is lovely that Jewish worshippers are now able to get to the Western Wall - I've been there myself - but it is a mystery to me why we should omit mention of the fact that an Arab neighborhood was destroyed and its occupants evicted in the process. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:04, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, for completeness, you could include the whole history of how an Arab settlement came to be built on a Jewish holy site. --Redaktor (talk) 13:42, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
(I would also include how the Jewish quarter had to be destroyed and its populace arrested then evicted in 1948, but how the Muslim quarter remained unharmed after 1967). Amoruso (talk) 15:16, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Your allegations of "whitewashing" are nonsense. The lies and distortions that have been added to this page since it became an FA are beyond belief. The Moroccan quarter information as it appeared was a tearjerking POV presentation without the context. It has since been restored giving the appropriate background, as I intended to do from the start, before you jumped in with your hasty "conclusions." --Gilabrand (talk) 13:55, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
I note your addition of the passage on eviction, and it moderates the impression of whitewashing. So far so good. As for "appropriate background": saying that this was a slum (and let's assume that the description even makes sense) helps legitimate what was done. What Nishidani says above about slum clearance (that it is usually about improving quality of life for current residents) is unfortunately not true; it is all too common to drive current residents out and make the area fit for a different type of population. That however does not mean that we need to convey the preferred narrative of the Israeli government here (drawing on an Israeli government source for it, no less). In addition, the paragraph is now very poorly written - jumping back and forth between topics, awkward sentences, improper spacing... Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:17, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
'Slum clearance', I should clarify, is what razing the slum implies. It implied, as I intended to point out ironically, that slums are pulled down to improve the area for its inhabitants, whereas, as Nomoskedasticity points out, it was to the contrary to kick Arabs out and put Jews into a new, nicely landscaped area. The point I wished to make is that much of Jerusalem had slums down to modern times. Montefiore's whole project from the late 1830s was to get physically weak, religiously intense Jews out of the filth and unhygienic conditions of the Jewish slums, as we all know, out into work in new agricultural areas. He built those row houses and the famous windmill to get them out of the closed, filthy overcrowded areas within the city walls, and in the same year that the Moroccan sector was razed and its denizens kicked out, the Montefiore section, that in the meantime had become a slum, was simply 'renovated' into the artistic and upmarket suburb it later became. To identify the Arab denizens as slum-dwellers at this one point, is a pointed little piece of work of bolding Arab degradation against Jewish modernity. Native Jerusalemites, again, will correct me if I err, but Yemin Moshe, a jewish area, suffered a similar fate twice, once under Montefiore's foundation's renovating projects (they kicked out the Jewish Yemini squatters in the late 1800s) and once more, as it degraded over time, was cleansed of, this time round, its poor Jews after 1967. In fact the Moroccan Quarter and the Jewish quarter of Yemin Moshe suffered a similar fate after 1967. I'm told that 'We won't go the way Yemen Moshe went' is a slogan in Jerusalem to resist administrative messing around with renovating projects against the will of the local population. This has nothing to do with I/P partisan politics, Gilabrand. Whatever the state (of bias and lachrymose POVing (not alien to hundreds of articles not dealing with Arabs, by the way)) of this section earlier, the edits you made on this are marked by a partisan insensitivity that shocks.Nishidani (talk) 10:17, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Shocking, my foot. A slum is a slum is a slum. The word appears on the Mishkenot Shaananim page, too. Yes, that also became a slum (OMG, even Jews have slums) - and no editors bent over backwards to whitewash it. If you have a problem with that word, you are welcome to find a better one. But don't tell me it's because you can't call waqf land a slum. If the waqf had any respect for this place as a religious site (Islamic or otherwise), it wouldn't have built a tannery there and turned it into a garbage dump. Yes, the Old City of Jerusalem was an overcrowded, unsanitary, rubbish-filled place with raw sewage running through the streets and dead animal carcasses all over. But of course, the Jews weren't the landlords at the time. If I'm not mistaken, it was the Ottomans' job (and then Jordan's) to do something about it. The truth is, King Hussein also thought the place needed a major cleanup. To do this, he evicted a large number of Arabs from their ramshackle homes in the Old City, and created a nice alternative for them. Today it is known as Shuafat refugee camp.--Gilabrand (talk) 20:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Okay. Crass. Thanks for documenting where you're coming from, it's all there on and between the lines.Nishidani (talk) 20:09, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
I have no problem with the word 'slum'. I have a problem with the fact that, in a city that was largely a slum for much of history until Jewish philanthropists, missionaries and the Mandatory Authorities began to invest in improvements, the word is used exclusively in the article to identity an Arab quarter as though to justify the remark that it was demolished (just the usual oriental vendetta of course).
You don't seem to understand the meaning of waqf. It is a religious trust, not sacred ground, one for charitable purposes. The Moroccans subsisted on charity as most Jews did on haluhah.
Thanks for noting Shuafat. I have linked it in your text to the wiki page, and corrected that page, which is of course a travesty. Hussein removed the Arab refugee community (kicked out of Ashkelon in 1948) from their hovels in the ruined Jewish quarter to Shuafat to renovate that quarter several months before the 6 Day War, whose result stopped his renovation project in its tracks. That of course wasn't mentioned in the Shuafat article, (nicely written to highlight the transfer as though it underlined Arab contempt for poor Arabs) nor was the fact that the Roman ruins uncovered at Shuafat, in several sources, are interpreted as referring to a mixed Roman-Jewish community, and not as the text says, privileging one source, only a Jewish community. Part of the judaisation of wiki I/P articles again. A town, even a slum, if only noted, if, excavating its ruins, one finds a stratum evidencing a Jewish phase of habitation. Once this is established the whole article focuses on that single point in its history (Silwan etc.etc.). Nishidani (talk) 20:47, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Justifying various edits

I'm doing some work to un-whitewash the 1967-present section again; recent edits have replaced clear and relevant information with a sort of obscured garble, the kind of prose that seems neutral, if you're not familiar with the relevant sources on the topic, but is actally very non-neutral because it marginalizes or ignores relevant facts.

[edit] "Unification"

It is not neutral to keep referring to a "unification" or "re-unification" of the city. The flip-side of the "unification" is the "occupation" of the East, and the vigorous Israeli efforts to sever Jerusalem, the economic and cultural heart of the Palestinian territories, from the rest of the West Bank. Israeli propaganda wants us to talk about "unified Jerusalem," which is of course true (ish... it's not "unified" for Jerusalemites judged by Israel to have not made it the "center of life"... but I digress), Palestinian propaganda wants us to talk about "occupied East Jerusalem." We can't pick one or the other and use it for a section title.

Good point. There is a tendency in here to take this order of comment as, not so much an application of Orwell's lessons to the language we use in here, but as a 'unilateral' imposition of a Palestinian perspective. I would remind editors that, historically, all international documents and agreements in this area are examined under the microscope draft by draft, for implications, and that one factor that makes negotiations extremely slow and tedious. Reflexively, we are cast into the same problems, and it is not a matter of blind partisan pertinacity. Palestinians still lament the careless oversight in drafting which lost them precious rights in the Hebron accord. Since there are, in all I/P articles, at least (but not only) two contrasting perspectives (as with all wiki articles on neighbouring peoples or nations in conflict), one does indeed need to pay attention to nuances like this. 'Unification', in Israel's perspective, has its obverse side in the 'detachment' of Jerusalem from its Palestinian-Arab hinterland. Perhaps when the present de facto assimilation of all of the West Bank becomes a de jure reality, we will not need to make these distinctions. But for the moment they are there, and crucial. Nishidani (talk) 16:40, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree.--AladdinSE (talk) 10:35, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Settlement rings, physical and economic isolation of Arabs in the East

Israel's efforts to isolate East Jerusalem from the rest of the territories have attracted a great deal of coverage in the highest class of reliable sources. "Israel has expanded the municipal boundaries of Jerusalem on the eastern, occupied side of the city," writes the BBC, "and built a ring of settlements such as Har Homa that separate it from the West Bank." [1] The Foundation for Middle East Peace states that "Israel is stepping up its effort to enclose Jerusalem with a ring of barriers and settlements designed to sever Palestinian East Jerusalem from the West Bank." [2] From the National Catholic Reporter:

In 1967 the government of Israel not only annexed East Jerusalem as defined under Jordanian rule but expanded its boundaries to 10 times its I former size. Israel drew a gerrymandered territorial boundary around Palestinian East Jerusalem. Authorities avoided areas of Palestinian residency but defined open land owned by these Palestinians as state land or "green spots" on which Palestinians could not build. These areas with in expanded Jerusalem have continually been redefined as areas of "public utility" for the construction of exclusively Jewish settlements. Remaining Palestinian communities between these settlements have been denied the right to expand, isolating and suffocating them.[3]

A major report from the World Bank on the economic viability of the Palestinian territories writes, "East Jerusalem has traditionally been an important hub of Palestinian economic and social activity. However, administrative obstacles, the expansion of settlements and the construction of the separation barrier are further severing East Jerusalem from the remainder of WB&G." [4] A 2005 Washington Post report, titled "Israelis Act to Encircle East Jerusalem" began, "The Israeli government and private Jewish groups are working in concert to build a human cordon around Jerusalem's Old City and its disputed holy sites, moving Jewish residents into Arab neighborhoods to consolidate their grip on strategic locations, according to critics of the effort and a Washington Post investigation. The goal is to establish Jewish enclaves in and around Arab-dominated East Jerusalem and eventually link them to form a ring around the city..." [5] (This is really not the conclusion of "critics" and "Washington Post investigations," but the openly stated purpose of the plan from the beginning; Jerusalem's deputy mayor told the New York Times in 1996, when the plan was being finalized, that "We want large-scale moves to make Jerusalem united, so no Government in the future will be able to give it away.") [6]

And yet, when I write, "Since 1967 Israel has expanded its definition of the city's eastern boundary and established a ring of Jewish settlements separating Arab neighbourhoods in East Jerusalem from the rest of the West Bank. Israel's controversial barrier has left East Jerusalem in the so-called Seam Zone, further isolating Palestinians in the city.," it gets whittled down to "Jerusalem has expanded its boundaries and established a ring of Jewish neighbourhoods on unoccupied land beyond the Green Line." This isn't neutrality, it's whitewash in the name of neutrality. I'm restoring the comprehensive and accurate version.

I don't understand, why don't you just insert this into the article, somewhat reduced? If people try to edit it out, they will have no justification and be reverted. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 16:30, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Building permits, demolitions

A similar issue occurs here. There has been widespread attention paid to the squeeze Israel puts on Arab Jerusalemites by denying them building permits and demolishing their homes when they do build. At the same time Jews can get permits much more easily, and even illegal Jewish construction or demolition is widely ignored. As the same World Bank report notes:

32. There is evidence that the application of zoning and planning provisions and the enforcement of building regulations is discriminatory in the Palestinian areas of East Jerusalem compared with that in Israeli neighborhoods. This has a negative impact not only on housing availability and costs, but has also constrained business activity in what has been an important business center for the Palestinian economy. According to a report released by Bimkom, an Israeli organization with expertise in zoning and planning, “planning in East Jerusalem is based on considerations that do not meet accepted legal, administrative and constitutional norms, such as governmental fairness, reasonability, proportionality and protection of human rights”. 63 The result of these policies is that building and expansion in Palestinian areas of East Jerusalem has been severely constrained by the failure of the Israeli authorities to provide permission for expansion or new construction. Moreover, when construction does take place without permission, the authorities are much more likely to take action against Palestinian violators. In the period of 1996-2000, for example, the number of recorded building violations was four and a half times higher in Israeli neighborhoods of Jerusalem (17,382 violations) than in Palestinian neighborhoods of East Jerusalem (3,846 violations). Nevertheless, during this same period, the number of demolition orders issued in West Jerusalem was four time less (86 orders) than the number in East Jerusalem (348 orders). In other words, while over 80 percent of building violations were recorded in West Jerusalem, 80 percent of actual demolition orders were issued for buildings in Palestinian East Jerusalem. Between 1999 and 2003, 157 Palestinian-owned buildings were demolished, while only 30 Israeli-owned buildings met the same fate.64 These discriminatory practices have led to both a housing shortage as well as limitations on the development of Palestinian businesses and employment opportunities in East Jerusalem. To adjust to this, many Palestinians built second homes or businesses further into the West Bank. However, with the completion of the Separation Barrier and the enforcement of increasingly draconian permit policies, the ability to maintain these businesses will become ever more difficult.

This is all strongly worded information from an impeccable source; it's certainly not appropriate to whittle it down to "permits in Arab areas are said to be difficult to acquire." So again I'm restoring the full story. The wikilink to House demolition in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in particular is vital; It may be that some "pro-Israeli" editors are outraged by the existence of that article, and have been working for some time to destroy it, but such actions have been clearly rejected by the WP community, and trying to hide the article from readers by removing wikilinks is just disruptive. <eleland/talkedits> 17:49, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

This is a vital point, Eleland, let's be sure to highlight this question (which is particularly true in Jerusalem, of all cities in the country). However, I think it can be done in a sentence or two, as other wiki entries deal with this issue at greater length. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 01:26, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Twilight zone: this article now uses a CAMERA article as a (reliable?) source. Who knew that encyclopaedia articles were meant to contain irony? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 11:03, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Hooray - more CAMERA!! Sure, the link is ngo-monitor (as if there were a difference), but the underlying stuff is all CAMERA. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 11:51, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Hey, it uses http://www.poica.org/ as a source, and I don't see you complaining about that. It's hard to carry off that neutrality thing when you only notice bad sources on one side. Jayjg (talk) 07:08, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Charming. To go after my neutrality on this one, you really have to scrape the bottom of the barrel. (a) It's reasonable to comment on an edit, without assessing the entire page. (b) the poica.org source is not being used in a way that poses a problem for NPOV; if anything it is superfluous, grouped with others that seem sufficient to support the text. I'd be happy to see it removed; I think it does this article more harm than good, even if only in regard to appearances. Anyway, I'm pleased you agree with me that CAMERA is a "bad source"; it's just too bad you found it necessary, despite that agreement, to take a shot at me (and one that missed, at that). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:18, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History, post 1948

There is way too much information about the history of Jerusalem, post-1948. The article generally goes over the history of the previous hundreds of years, and suddenly, come the establishment of Israel, we have a blow-by-blow of where Jews were transferred, which cities were depopulated, what part was legal/illegal and recognized/unrecognized, various statements by international bodies denouncing this and that... It's somewhat amusing. One can almost read through that part of the history and say "this is obviously written by someone who just wants to make a pro-Israel/Palestinian point" because there are so many odd transitions and so much superfluous detail that clearly serve primarily to draw sympathy. -- tariqabjotu 12:21, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

That sums it up perfectly. Jayjg (talk) 06:09, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
That's a good point. However, considering the numerous discussions and the current FAR, I think it's unlikely that a consensus about trimming those sections can be reached. -- Nudve (talk) 06:21, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Hey, those are real issues with the article, not the bogus ones raised on the FA review. Why not clean them up? Jayjg (talk) 06:37, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Now that I take another look at it, it seems like the second paragraph of the "1967 unification" section could be merged into the "Palestinian claims" section. What do you think? -- Nudve (talk) 07:06, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Actually, the Palestinian claims section seems to be have little to do with Palestinian claims, which have been incorporated in practically every section of the article (almost to the point of a complete takeover). Interestingly, if you look at the headings, you will see that all mention of Israel has been obliterated. Ottoman rule, Muslim rule, Persian rule, Crusader rule. But Israel or the State of Israel? Good heavens, no. Jerusalem is a "divided city" or some vague entity that has something to do with "1967 unification." Write a section about Arab claims on Jerusalem, by all means, but I don't believe that the history of Jerusalem under Israel should be entitled "British mandatory rule and transition period" or whatever it was a few days ago.--Gilabrand (talk) 08:17, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
That's my point exactly. Merge all the Palestinian claims into one section, and leave the history sections objective. -- Nudve (talk) 08:23, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
My God (your god, our god). Did it ever occur to you Gilabrand, or the rest of you who agree with him, that perhaps the fact that "Palestinian claims" have been inserted throughout the article is a reflection of the fact that Palestinians might have claims that were previously omitted, rather than that there is some sort of conspiracy to 'take over' the Jerusalem section? Palestinian claims certainly deserve to be threaded throughout the article as much as Israeli ones. If you do not think so, that's your perspective, only; it's not a fundamental fact. Also, I'd like to clarify my previous point (if it was not already clear) that the problem with the orientation of the article is not the undue weight given to discussion of Jerusalem after 1948 or the lack of space given to the history of the city prior to 1948 (there's supposed to be a whole article on the History of Jerusalem), but that Jerusalem is not sufficiently treated as an international city of worldwide contemporary or historical importance, a city of landmarks and historical junctures to which many traditions refer. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 21:52, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mandate - 1948 Arab-Israeli war

  • This paragraph is currently in the Mandate section :
However, this plan was not implemented as the Haganah and the Jordanian Arab Legion fought for control of the city. On May 28, the Arab Legion gained control over the Old City; all of its Jewish inhabitants were either taken prisoner or handed over to the Red Cross to be permanently transferred to Israeli-controlled areas.[76]

I think it should be moved to the 1948 Arab-Israeli War section because these events occured after 15 May when Arab Legion and Haganah fought for the city.

  • It may also be pointed out that the city has been one of the main objective of the 1948 War with around 10 important battles or military operations...

Ceedjee (talk) 08:09, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Development section - should stay short and bittersweet

As you can see, I created a short section on development which deals with plans and with the permit controversy. I would like to make a request that this section not get transformed into a discussion on the permit issue in general, and that all details added here specifically deal with the issue in Jerusalem. Thanks!LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 19:21, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't like it. This section basically reads "The biased CAMERA says this and that. However, CAMERA are liars", which is exactly the kind of stuff we should be trying to avoid in order to keep this article at FA status. -- Nudve (talk) 19:35, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

You don't like it, then tone it down a little without deleting the facts. Add your own facts, with good sources to back them up. Best,LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 19:44, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I should add, that, on other pages, left-wing Israeli scholars have been repeatedly deleted from footnotes because people felt they were biased. Note that, though I personally think CAMERA is a nonsense source (and it has been agreed upon as such in wiki forums which have decided against its use) you will see that I did not delete them. I added contrasting information which yes, highlighted the weakness of their argument. But I did not call them liars - I didn't need to. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 19:48, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
I continue to be amazed that other editors are willing to allow use of a CAMERA source to be used on this page, particularly for this purpose where they so obviously have an agenda. If what they say were true, surely someone more reputable would have documented the point. In the context of the FAR, its presence on this page gives a very damaging impression, in my view. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:58, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Just in case it is not obvious, I did not insert the CAMERA info (nor would I), it got squeezed in by someone else a few weeks ago. I think in this case the contrast between CAMERA's interest group perspective on this issue and the World Bank's outside perspective, is interesting, if nothing else. Also, the World Bank stats are so strong that they will consistently attract the attention (and vandalism) of those who want to disappear these facts. We might as well give them a chance to see their own point of view presented. No one can charge here that a biased source was used or that both perspectives were not represented.LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 20:05, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
LLLL, I apologize. I was under the impression that you're the one who inserted the CAMERA info (I think you did reinsert it, at one point). Besides, it looks better now than when I first posted my message. However, I think the World Bank paragraph has too much undue explanations and predictions that I think should be cut down. -- Nudve (talk) 03:31, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Glad it's clearer now. I didn't like the CAMERA info, thought it was a bit strange, but I am not a fan of deleting other people's additions. I prefer to add to them, and then to edit out, not info, but wordiness. We can always go back after adding new inof and tighten the writing and reduce the length of quotes, etc. in order to keep things sharp. Feel free to tighten that section further if you are so inspired; I personally am unlikely to argue with editing for conciseness if the content is not too butchered.LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 05:26, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Muslim rule - sloppy editing

The Islamic rule section has gotten muddled. Just now, the British Mandate was listed under Islamic rule. Further, there was a subsection reading: "Crusaders, Muslims, and Mamluks". What kind of heading is that? The Mamluks were Muslim (just like the Crusaders were Christian, and so the heading could as easily have read, "Crusaders, Christians, Muslims and Mamluks"). I changed it back to "Crusaders, Saladin, and the Mamluks" which is what is said before. Can't see why anyone would object to that. Pleeeeease check your facts before making such edits.

Also, the Ottoman section went from a somewhat normal, if spare, description of 400 years of turkish rule (from which a great deal is missing) to: "In 1517, Jerusalem and environs fell to the Ottoman Turks, who remained in control until 1917.[59] The Ottomans built tanneries and slaughterhouses near Christian and Jewish holy places "so that an evil smell should ever plague the infidels." The rest of the entry then read as a discussion of Ottoman attitudes towards dhimmis. However important such info on minorities is, always, it was treated here as absolutely the principle point, the most central matter in an entry on 4oo years of Ottoman rule in Jerusalem. Further, the placement of the tanneries quote at the very start of the section was overtly political in nature. I kept the quote but placed it further down as it clearly was placed in a way giving the question WP:UNDUE, undue weight.LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 23:12, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
The only one with egg on his face is you, LamaLo. The Mamluks were Muslim? So were the Ottomans. --Gilabrand (talk) 04:51, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Uh, I know that. The point is that saying Muslims and Mamluks is like saying Crusaders and Christians. Be nice, Gilabrand, I wasn't knowingly targetting anyone personally. Egg on the face?LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 05:23, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, Lamlo, but you are wrong. Not all Christians were Crusaders and not all Muslims are Mamluks. Historians divide the conquest of Palestine into many eras, and the Muslim period is not the same as the Mamluk period, which is not the same as the Ottoman period, which is not the same as the Egyptian period, and so on. Talk about "being nice"? Read your comments on this page and see how "nice" they are (although yes, they nicely avoid being directed to any one person). --Gilabrand (talk) 05:42, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure you understood me properly, Gilabrand, before ridiculing me? That "Not all Christians were Crusaders and not all Muslims are Mamluks" goes without saying. Did you mean, not all Crusaders were christian and not all mamluks were muslim? Perhaps not every single last one, but the majority certainly were. As conquerors, they were Christian conquerors and they were Muslim conquerors. The entirety of the Mamluk, Ottoman, and early Muslims periods are all regarded as "Muslim rule." Having studied Islamic history at some length, and written my thesis on it, I cannot really understanding what you are getting at. Please explain, and yes, savlanut and be nice, when dealing directly with individuals, otherwise, let's take it to our personal talk pages and away from the rest of the wiki editors who don't need to deal with our back-and-forth.LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 05:48, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Information less than a year old in 'History section'

Hello there, nothing personal, but the following quote inserted by Gilabrand does not belong under 'history.' It is very recent and it is also very long. I find it a relevant point and have posted it here for comment:

  • Some of the most prominent Islamic leaders insist that Jews have no connection to Jerusalem. "There was never a Jewish temple on Al-Aksa [the mosque compound] and there is no proof that there was ever a temple," says the

(FORMER) mufti of Jerusalem. "Because Allah is fair, he would not agree to make Al-Aksa if there were a temple there for others beforehand...The wall is not part of the Jewish temple. It is just the western wall of the mosque. There is not a single stone with any relation at all to the history of the Hebrews." Asked if Jews would ever be allowed to pray on the Temple Mount under Muslim control, he replied: "It is not the Temple Mount, you must say Al-Aksa. And no Jews have the right to pray at the mosque. It was always only a mosque - all 144 dunams, the entire area. No Jewish prayer. If the Jews want real peace, they must not do anything to try to pray on Al-Aksa. Everyone knows that." [1]

This could fit under a destined-to-be-contentious, religious status section, or perhaps: "Jerusalem, contested," where we could center both the religious and political arguments between right-wing Jews and Arabs. However, at present the quote is too long and needs to be edited to its most essential meaning. Thoughts? LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 06:22, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Keep the quote under history, or move the preceding statement as well. They belong together. If anything, the connection between the quote and the preceding statement that the status remains a core issue needs to be made explicit, as the one helps to explain the other. This is one of the basic roots of the conflict, and exactly the kind of thing an encyclopedia reader would be looking for. Hertz1888 (talk) 06:31, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply, Hertz1888. Gilabrand immediately reverted the quote without looking here, which then gave the impression that he was not willing to discuss the matter here. Thus I went ahead and moved it down to the religious section.
Fundamentally, the quote does not belong in history as it is just one year old. I don't see anything else in the history section of that nature. If we were to open the history section up to such recent info, the last paragraphs on Jerusalem's disputed status could turn into a whole other article full with recent info on demolition activity and permit policy, as well. But no, recent data like that does not belong under history - it belongs in its own section.
re: your other point - Perhaps you liked the flow as it was, but it would have been edited anyway, since it clearly indicated that the beginning and end of the disputes over Jerusalem lie with 'the Muslims', when we all know, if we are to be honest with ourselves, that the disputes go both ways. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 06:42, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
For the record, it also needs to be clear that there is an important (if not total) distinction between the dispute over Jerusalem as a religious city and Jerusalem as a political capital. There are many secular, as well as religious, Palestinians who find the mufti's attitude very offensive, and still see Jerusalem as the historic cultural capital/center of government for the region known as Palestine prior to 1948. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 20:07, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
The quote may be one year old, but its subject is the denial of history going back millenia. That just might qualify it to be in a history section. By the way, just so you know, Gilabrand is she. Hertz1888 (talk) 21:19, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Along those lines one could argue for inclusion of a 2007 claim by Beni Elon (who might be a fringe fanatic to many of us, but nevertheless has been at the heart of the Cabinet for years now, on and off) dismissing the historic roots of Arabs in the Old city of Jerusalem, or denying a century of aspirations of Palestinians for an independent state with Jerusalem as its capital. But I must leave this talk page. Hasta la vista, see you on a better day. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 22:30, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of academic sources

We have just seen an edit of the type that in my view is one of the worst an editor on Wikipedia can make: removal of a reference on grounds that it is "not accessible to the public". This approach, generalized, amounts to the claim that if something is held only by academic libraries it can't be used on Wikipedia. This is absolutely daft; we ought to be encouraging use of this sort of material, not suppressing it. It is furthermore untrue that it is not accessible to the public; anyone who wants this book can get it via interlibrary loan at their local public library. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 09:00, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry but after checking WP policies I see you are right. JSTOR sources were deleted in so many articles I have worked on, on the grounds that editors must have access to the information and subscriber sites that charge for accessibility are not good sources. Reading the guidelines more closely, I see this is not so. I stand corrected.--Gilabrand (talk) 09:35, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Scripture and NPOV

There seems to be a serious NPOV issue in that most entries on early history make absolutely no effort to distinguish between scripture and agreed history. Likely this is the result of naive people not understanding that there might even be a difference between the two, but this is very far from a universal academic position so it's hardly NPOV to breathlessly recount scriptural events as fact without even acknowledging that this is a disputed position. As desperately earnest as you are in your belief that scripture is god-breathed history, it's not a widespread viewpoint in history departments outside of religious educational institutions, so facts that are only "established" in scripture need to be couched in those terms so that readers who don't share your position aren't tempted to assume these things are agreed fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.172.4.44 (talk) 03:43, 18 August 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Capital and NPOV

I read through the discussion and wanted to pose a question:

is the POV tag exclusively about the capital issue?

if so may I suggest the phrase "proclaimed capital"? I think that is neutral and accurate, washington is the proclaimed capital of the united states. and there is no negative overtones to the word whatso ever, I suppose a very pro-israeli person might say there is no such word preceding washington D.C. what is the difference between DC and jerusalem? well.. I'd say the fact that not a single country in the world is willing to place their embassy there not even israel's closest ally, and that another community claims it as there's. And I suppose a very pro-palastinian person might say just the very fact that they say its their capital must be disputed so that should be in the lead. well.. I'd say whether you like it or not it is their dejure and almost completely defacto capital (excluding the embassies and foreign recognition), which is not the case for the as yet for either palestinian "governments" hamas or fata, the israeli's have their parliment executive judiciary etc there.. and wanting to put the word disputed before any countries capital is going to lead to a dispute tag... and that's not a good thing...isn't the neutral term "proclaimed" just as true as "disputed"?

I doubt either side will accept but hey! I gave it a shot.  :)

Esmehwa (talk) 17:39, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Your suggestion is appreciated, but I'm afraid it's been rejected before. -- Nudve (talk) 18:03, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
That's because we're here to write facts, not please partisans. Oh, and there was already a whole lot of compromise, it's just that one side tries to get more and more, trampling any previous compromise to pull the article their way. okedem (talk) 20:38, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
It's unfortunate you couldn't just respond to Esmehwa's comment without making unnecessary jabs at other editors. I'm not particularly happy with your style of editing recently, which appears to be based largely on suggesting that edits contrary to yours come from bias. And, to make things worse, I'd say the to talking about